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	<title>Comments on: [Adam Cuerden] Citizendium: The Encyclopedia only pro-Homeopathy editors can edit</title>
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	<link>http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/2009/02/12/citizendium-the-encyclopedia-only-pro-homeopathy-editors-can-edit/</link>
	<description>Devoid of all delusions save those of observation, experience and reflection.</description>
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		<title>By: mike3</title>
		<link>http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/2009/02/12/citizendium-the-encyclopedia-only-pro-homeopathy-editors-can-edit/comment-page-1/#comment-1324</link>
		<dc:creator>mike3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:27:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/?p=1879#comment-1324</guid>
		<description>The articles should also not lead the reader to the conclusion it is crap, either (even though I think it is crap, that is not the point) -- rather they should advance *no* conclusion, and conclusiony bias of either direction is bad, bad, bad, and I&#039;m afraid of it popping up in the CZ. Rather the articles should offer just the information, and let the reader decide what viewpoint they wish to take.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The articles should also not lead the reader to the conclusion it is crap, either (even though I think it is crap, that is not the point) &#8212; rather they should advance *no* conclusion, and conclusiony bias of either direction is bad, bad, bad, and I&#8217;m afraid of it popping up in the CZ. Rather the articles should offer just the information, and let the reader decide what viewpoint they wish to take.</p>
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		<title>By: Seven Lions &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Wikipedia, the True Killer App - writing, research, art and digital media</title>
		<link>http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/2009/02/12/citizendium-the-encyclopedia-only-pro-homeopathy-editors-can-edit/comment-page-1/#comment-1257</link>
		<dc:creator>Seven Lions &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Wikipedia, the True Killer App - writing, research, art and digital media</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 01:50:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/?p=1879#comment-1257</guid>
		<description>[...] Brittanica, maybe it could spend some quality time attending to the final rites of its sickly second [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Brittanica, maybe it could spend some quality time attending to the final rites of its sickly second [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Reinder</title>
		<link>http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/2009/02/12/citizendium-the-encyclopedia-only-pro-homeopathy-editors-can-edit/comment-page-1/#comment-1252</link>
		<dc:creator>Reinder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/?p=1879#comment-1252</guid>
		<description>Gareth, thanks for your comments. As this post is over a month old, I can&#039;t guarantee that Adam will be back to respond though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gareth, thanks for your comments. As this post is over a month old, I can&#8217;t guarantee that Adam will be back to respond though.</p>
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		<title>By: Gareth Leng</title>
		<link>http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/2009/02/12/citizendium-the-encyclopedia-only-pro-homeopathy-editors-can-edit/comment-page-1/#comment-1251</link>
		<dc:creator>Gareth Leng</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 17:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/?p=1879#comment-1251</guid>
		<description>Tord asks about homeopathy, vaccines and malaria; he might look at the Citizendium article, which states:

&quot;The notion of homeoprophylaxis has not received support from systematic trials and has no place in conventional medicine. Suggestions that homeopathic treatments are an effective alternative to vaccination are regarded as irresponsible by many public health professionals, and also by some professional homeopathic organizations; in the U.K., The Faculty for Homeopathy recognizes the importance of childhood vaccination and does not support the common use of homeopathic remedies in place of conventional travel vaccinations and for malaria prevention, warning travellers &quot;that there is no evidence that these provide any degree of protection&quot;&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tord asks about homeopathy, vaccines and malaria; he might look at the Citizendium article, which states:</p>
<p>&#8220;The notion of homeoprophylaxis has not received support from systematic trials and has no place in conventional medicine. Suggestions that homeopathic treatments are an effective alternative to vaccination are regarded as irresponsible by many public health professionals, and also by some professional homeopathic organizations; in the U.K., The Faculty for Homeopathy recognizes the importance of childhood vaccination and does not support the common use of homeopathic remedies in place of conventional travel vaccinations and for malaria prevention, warning travellers &#8220;that there is no evidence that these provide any degree of protection&#8221;"</p>
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		<title>By: Gareth Leng</title>
		<link>http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/2009/02/12/citizendium-the-encyclopedia-only-pro-homeopathy-editors-can-edit/comment-page-1/#comment-1250</link>
		<dc:creator>Gareth Leng</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2009 16:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/?p=1879#comment-1250</guid>
		<description>Adam suggests that the Citizendium article promotes homeopathy by excluding criticism. 

Well the article does, for example, say &quot;Homeopaths also assert that corticosteroids are immunosuppressant drugs that only provide temporary relief of asthma symptoms and may lead to more serious chronic disease and to increased chances of death.&quot;
This is true; homeopaths do assert this. So what does Citizendium immediately say next.
&quot;Medical opinion is that this assertion is uninformed scare-mongering. They advise that corticosteroids prevent inflammation that can have serious consequences and symptom relief is a result of this anti-inflammatory action.&quot;

In what sense exactly is this excluding criticism?

Adam tells us at length that homeopathic remedies have no active ingredient, explaining that Citizendium has ignored this well-sourced and valid criticism: so I wonder what is the following section doing in the Citizendium article:

&quot;We now know that, for example, a teaspoon of seawater (5 ml) contains about 160 mg of NaCl. The molecular weight of NaCl is 58.4, so by Avogadro&#039;s number, (or, in German-speaking countries, Loschmidt&#039;s number), 58.4 g of NaCl (one mole) contains 6.02×1023 molecules. We can thus calculate that our teaspoon contains about 2×1021 molecules of NaCl. A 12C dilution of seawater will have about one molecule of NaCl per litre. Thus homeopathic remedies diluted to more than about 12C are virtually certain to contain not even a single molecule of the initial substance.&quot;

Is there really no criticism? Not even in the quotes from NCCAM &quot;There is, to my knowledge, no condition for which homeopathy has been proven to be an effective treatment.&quot; or the NHS &quot;Despite the available research, it has proven difficult to produce clear clinical evidence that homeopathy works&quot;. Citizendium reports these; that&#039;s what neutral articles do, they report criticisms. Many people would like Citizendium articles to carry an editorial message, to say &quot;this is what Citizendium thinks&quot;.  Citizendium is trying to do something rather different, and to say this is what homeopaths believe and why, this is what scientists believe and why - it&#039;s up to the reader to use his or her intelligence from here on.

Adam curiously quotes the overview at length as though it were pro homeopathy; in fact it is the opposite; it is an explanation of why false positive (pro homeopathy) studies are so common in the literature. Any reasoned opposition to homeopathy must address this - as did the Lancet study, explained at length, that heralded the &quot;end of homeopathy&quot; - this was not a study showing that homeopathy was ineffective - it was an analysis of studies that show mainly positive results - and a demonstration of how publication bias can lead to selective publication of false positive results. It&#039;s a subtle argument, but real understanding does require some sophistication in intelligence. 

Most of those who contributed to the Citizendium article, including me, believe that homeopathy is scientific nonsense. But most of us believe that an honest debate about homeopathy has to address the strongest case that can be made for it, not some strawman case that is easy to knock down. The article clearly stated that homeopathy lacks scientific support, and stated why in the following terms:

&quot;In brief, for homeopathy to receive serious scientific consideration, there needs to be plausible explanations for the following: a) how the process of manufacturing a homeopathic remedy could yield a biologically active substance or solution, b) why the principle of similars might apply in the case of homeopathic remedies c)how a biological mechanism could have evolved to recognize the specific nature of homeopathic remedies.There also needs to be clear and irrefutable evidence for the efficacy of homeopathic remedies, evidence that cannot be explained by placebo effects. These stringent demands are often summarised by the maxim &quot;Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof&quot;.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam suggests that the Citizendium article promotes homeopathy by excluding criticism. </p>
<p>Well the article does, for example, say &#8220;Homeopaths also assert that corticosteroids are immunosuppressant drugs that only provide temporary relief of asthma symptoms and may lead to more serious chronic disease and to increased chances of death.&#8221;<br />
This is true; homeopaths do assert this. So what does Citizendium immediately say next.<br />
&#8220;Medical opinion is that this assertion is uninformed scare-mongering. They advise that corticosteroids prevent inflammation that can have serious consequences and symptom relief is a result of this anti-inflammatory action.&#8221;</p>
<p>In what sense exactly is this excluding criticism?</p>
<p>Adam tells us at length that homeopathic remedies have no active ingredient, explaining that Citizendium has ignored this well-sourced and valid criticism: so I wonder what is the following section doing in the Citizendium article:</p>
<p>&#8220;We now know that, for example, a teaspoon of seawater (5 ml) contains about 160 mg of NaCl. The molecular weight of NaCl is 58.4, so by Avogadro&#8217;s number, (or, in German-speaking countries, Loschmidt&#8217;s number), 58.4 g of NaCl (one mole) contains 6.02×1023 molecules. We can thus calculate that our teaspoon contains about 2×1021 molecules of NaCl. A 12C dilution of seawater will have about one molecule of NaCl per litre. Thus homeopathic remedies diluted to more than about 12C are virtually certain to contain not even a single molecule of the initial substance.&#8221;</p>
<p>Is there really no criticism? Not even in the quotes from NCCAM &#8220;There is, to my knowledge, no condition for which homeopathy has been proven to be an effective treatment.&#8221; or the NHS &#8220;Despite the available research, it has proven difficult to produce clear clinical evidence that homeopathy works&#8221;. Citizendium reports these; that&#8217;s what neutral articles do, they report criticisms. Many people would like Citizendium articles to carry an editorial message, to say &#8220;this is what Citizendium thinks&#8221;.  Citizendium is trying to do something rather different, and to say this is what homeopaths believe and why, this is what scientists believe and why &#8211; it&#8217;s up to the reader to use his or her intelligence from here on.</p>
<p>Adam curiously quotes the overview at length as though it were pro homeopathy; in fact it is the opposite; it is an explanation of why false positive (pro homeopathy) studies are so common in the literature. Any reasoned opposition to homeopathy must address this &#8211; as did the Lancet study, explained at length, that heralded the &#8220;end of homeopathy&#8221; &#8211; this was not a study showing that homeopathy was ineffective &#8211; it was an analysis of studies that show mainly positive results &#8211; and a demonstration of how publication bias can lead to selective publication of false positive results. It&#8217;s a subtle argument, but real understanding does require some sophistication in intelligence. </p>
<p>Most of those who contributed to the Citizendium article, including me, believe that homeopathy is scientific nonsense. But most of us believe that an honest debate about homeopathy has to address the strongest case that can be made for it, not some strawman case that is easy to knock down. The article clearly stated that homeopathy lacks scientific support, and stated why in the following terms:</p>
<p>&#8220;In brief, for homeopathy to receive serious scientific consideration, there needs to be plausible explanations for the following: a) how the process of manufacturing a homeopathic remedy could yield a biologically active substance or solution, b) why the principle of similars might apply in the case of homeopathic remedies c)how a biological mechanism could have evolved to recognize the specific nature of homeopathic remedies.There also needs to be clear and irrefutable evidence for the efficacy of homeopathic remedies, evidence that cannot be explained by placebo effects. These stringent demands are often summarised by the maxim &#8220;Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof&#8221;.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Castelli</title>
		<link>http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/2009/02/12/citizendium-the-encyclopedia-only-pro-homeopathy-editors-can-edit/comment-page-1/#comment-1218</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Castelli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 04:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/?p=1879#comment-1218</guid>
		<description>The &quot;meat&quot; and the &quot;motion&quot;...

Crank it up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;meat&#8221; and the &#8220;motion&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>Crank it up.</p>
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		<title>By: Tord Helsingeng</title>
		<link>http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/2009/02/12/citizendium-the-encyclopedia-only-pro-homeopathy-editors-can-edit/comment-page-1/#comment-1196</link>
		<dc:creator>Tord Helsingeng</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Mar 2009 15:19:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/?p=1879#comment-1196</guid>
		<description>I wonder if most homeopaths think it is ethical to sell homeopathic vaccines for malaria? And when these remedies don&#039;t work, if they attribute it to wrong dosage, potence or miasms, or perhaps bad interpersonal chemistry (the &quot;motion&quot;, so to speak) between healer and patient? I&#039;d really like to see some studies on these questions, actually.

May all beings experience, peace, freedom and happiness!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if most homeopaths think it is ethical to sell homeopathic vaccines for malaria? And when these remedies don&#8217;t work, if they attribute it to wrong dosage, potence or miasms, or perhaps bad interpersonal chemistry (the &#8220;motion&#8221;, so to speak) between healer and patient? I&#8217;d really like to see some studies on these questions, actually.</p>
<p>May all beings experience, peace, freedom and happiness!</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Cuerden</title>
		<link>http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/2009/02/12/citizendium-the-encyclopedia-only-pro-homeopathy-editors-can-edit/comment-page-1/#comment-1189</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Cuerden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/?p=1879#comment-1189</guid>
		<description>Yes, well, I spent three years on the wikipedia article on homeopathy, including several months dealing with Mr. Ullman&#039;s attempts to rewrite the article.  I&#039;d rather not go back to square one on a new wiki, where even criticising Ullman - of whom I could say a great deal - is forbidden.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, well, I spent three years on the wikipedia article on homeopathy, including several months dealing with Mr. Ullman&#8217;s attempts to rewrite the article.  I&#8217;d rather not go back to square one on a new wiki, where even criticising Ullman &#8211; of whom I could say a great deal &#8211; is forbidden.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Morris</title>
		<link>http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/2009/02/12/citizendium-the-encyclopedia-only-pro-homeopathy-editors-can-edit/comment-page-1/#comment-1188</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Morris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 10:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/?p=1879#comment-1188</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s the thing: I&#039;m involved with Citizendium and I&#039;m absolutely fucking ashamed of this article, and I&#039;ve made that clear to the relevant people over and over. We&#039;ve got this absolutely ridiculous system where we have two Workgroups: one called Health Sciences and one called Healing Arts. To become an editor in Health Sciences, you need to be a Ph.D involved in medical research. To become an editor in Healing Arts, you can turn up with a phony Ph.D in naturopathic magic from some diploma mill in Buttfuck, Idaho. In no other discipline do we have a Workgroup specifically set up to allow cranks to push their point-of-view. We don&#039;t have &quot;Economics&quot; and &quot;Monetary Arts&quot;, &quot;Political Science&quot; and &quot;Governing Arts&quot;, &quot;Biology&quot; and &quot;Vitalistic Life Studies&quot;. If you come along with a Ph.D from a bunch of cranks saying that you think that the way to sort out the recession is to sit in a circle and chant, you don&#039;t get a say in our Economics articles - but if you get a diploma mill to certify your charlatanism in &quot;healing arts&quot;, you are free to pass judgment on the science of homeopathy. The whole thing stacks the deck in favour of crank pseudoscience, and on the most dangerous topic it could possibly be on: medicine and health. I&#039;ve brought this point up numerous times, and we get no action. I&#039;m guessing we need to have someone die after reading one of our Healing Arts articles on how sticking toothpaste up your butt saves you from all the bother with chemotherapy.

But, I do have to say, it&#039;s very easy to criticise wikis. When this article was being written, I tried hard to get skeptics involved. I approached people who wrote about homeopathy at JREF, at the Science-Based Medicine blog, some of the writers of skeptical articles about homeopathy, in skeptical chatrooms and so on. I was e-mailing away for hours trying to get someone to come people to balance out some of the baloney being pushed on the article and in the talk page. What response did I get? None. Zip, zilch, nada. Too busy or couldn&#039;t give a shit. What would be really nice is if the skeptical community could get involved when offered the chance, rather than bitch about it afterwards. So, an open invitiation: come on skeptics, come and write some articles for Citizendium and make sure that the next alternative medicine article that goes for approval doesn&#039;t end up sucking quite as much as the homeopathy article has.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the thing: I&#8217;m involved with Citizendium and I&#8217;m absolutely fucking ashamed of this article, and I&#8217;ve made that clear to the relevant people over and over. We&#8217;ve got this absolutely ridiculous system where we have two Workgroups: one called Health Sciences and one called Healing Arts. To become an editor in Health Sciences, you need to be a Ph.D involved in medical research. To become an editor in Healing Arts, you can turn up with a phony Ph.D in naturopathic magic from some diploma mill in Buttfuck, Idaho. In no other discipline do we have a Workgroup specifically set up to allow cranks to push their point-of-view. We don&#8217;t have &#8220;Economics&#8221; and &#8220;Monetary Arts&#8221;, &#8220;Political Science&#8221; and &#8220;Governing Arts&#8221;, &#8220;Biology&#8221; and &#8220;Vitalistic Life Studies&#8221;. If you come along with a Ph.D from a bunch of cranks saying that you think that the way to sort out the recession is to sit in a circle and chant, you don&#8217;t get a say in our Economics articles &#8211; but if you get a diploma mill to certify your charlatanism in &#8220;healing arts&#8221;, you are free to pass judgment on the science of homeopathy. The whole thing stacks the deck in favour of crank pseudoscience, and on the most dangerous topic it could possibly be on: medicine and health. I&#8217;ve brought this point up numerous times, and we get no action. I&#8217;m guessing we need to have someone die after reading one of our Healing Arts articles on how sticking toothpaste up your butt saves you from all the bother with chemotherapy.</p>
<p>But, I do have to say, it&#8217;s very easy to criticise wikis. When this article was being written, I tried hard to get skeptics involved. I approached people who wrote about homeopathy at JREF, at the Science-Based Medicine blog, some of the writers of skeptical articles about homeopathy, in skeptical chatrooms and so on. I was e-mailing away for hours trying to get someone to come people to balance out some of the baloney being pushed on the article and in the talk page. What response did I get? None. Zip, zilch, nada. Too busy or couldn&#8217;t give a shit. What would be really nice is if the skeptical community could get involved when offered the chance, rather than bitch about it afterwards. So, an open invitiation: come on skeptics, come and write some articles for Citizendium and make sure that the next alternative medicine article that goes for approval doesn&#8217;t end up sucking quite as much as the homeopathy article has.</p>
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		<title>By: &#187; Skeptics&#8217; Circle #106 Disillusioned Words: atheism, art and politics</title>
		<link>http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/2009/02/12/citizendium-the-encyclopedia-only-pro-homeopathy-editors-can-edit/comment-page-1/#comment-1187</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; Skeptics&#8217; Circle #106 Disillusioned Words: atheism, art and politics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://reinderdijkhuis.com/wordpress/?p=1879#comment-1187</guid>
		<description>[...] Adam Cuerden at Waffle takes on Citizendium&#8217;s pro-Homeopathy bias with &#8220;Citizendium: The Encyclopedia only pro-Homeopathy editors can edit.&#8220;  Here is a short excerpt about the Citizendium article on Homeopathy: It shows: Criticism [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Adam Cuerden at Waffle takes on Citizendium&#8217;s pro-Homeopathy bias with &#8220;Citizendium: The Encyclopedia only pro-Homeopathy editors can edit.&#8220;  Here is a short excerpt about the Citizendium article on Homeopathy: It shows: Criticism [...]</p>
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